Pilgrim (1981 T37) projects and typical areas of concern

airedog · **Joined:** 09 Nov 2011 07:22 **Posts:** 73

[img]I've had Pilgrim since Oct. 2011. Good tips found here and my own experiences working on boats over the last 30 years helped me to find and identify projects to prep her for long term cruising.

At first look Pilgrim look good. No apparent blisters with an apparently sound bottom. As she had been on the hard for several years tho the hull was dry. As such any blisters would have dried and flattened. To investigate I removed all the old bottom paint using an 8" Makita variable sander/ polisher and 60 grit pads. Only by sanding through the gelcoat in spots did the dried blisters appear. The areas of exposed fiberglass had very small "spots". Dried blisters. Smaller than an 1/8", but everywhere. The more gelcoat I removed, the more I found. Under the fiberglass surface there were little white spots. Spots of de-lamination. As a very lucky man I have lots of friends in the business and am getting a great deal on shaving the hull. This is a new decision for me. I had hoped a barrier coat would seal the hull well enough, but the truth is the blisters would swell as soon as she hit the water. So in two weeks she will be shaved. Afterwards she'll be faired then barrier-coated. In a case where the de-lamination spots are larger than 1/4" after shaving matting should be layed over the shaved hull. We don't think Pilgrim will need that pre shaving. Is so we'll lay her up. Another boat had that done here this spring by my friend (Jeff). That was a $16,000 job (shaved, mat applied, faired, barrier coated and painted with hard bottom paint). Contact me if you want to hear more about this project...I'll post pics of the shaving...

Here on the site it was pointed out many T37's have a bolt placed in the bottom of the rudder to drain water on the hard. That isn't a good thing because it's indicative of a compromised rudder. The foam separates from the skin of the rudder and water infiltrates anywhere it can. I decided to drop the rudder which has the added benefit of allowing the Pintle to be inspected. I have an old Cetec Benmar auto-pilot which adds to the removal work. That assembly came out first. Then the steering cables and quadrant. (I didn't really get where to mark the cables, but with my shipwright friends it shouldn't be a problem re-adjusting the cables...I hope...lol). So quadrant removed, next is the pintle. Very tough spot to work, crawling over the water heater and snaking head first down to the 4 nuts on the bolts. The heads were spot welded to the base of the pintle and in loosening I broke two of the welds requiring someone to hold those two bolt heads while I loosened from inside. Very difficult and hard on my body (I have a bad back). Once removed the rudder was free. Before I did this I cut off the skeg. One writer I believe said the rudder could be dropped without skeg removal but to hold the bolt heads I had cut it off. Now the rudder could drop. (I dug a 16" hole to allow it to drop free).

Once off I cut out the starboard side as others here pointed out. The foam fill was absolutely saturated, I could squeeze water out of a chunk like a wet sponge. What a good and necessary decision it was to drop and re-fill the rudder. It's strength would have been severely compromised as it was. Foam removal was no fun. Lots of digging. Around the rudder post was worst. I too a paint roller, removed the roller, bent the handle into a hook and hammered the end flat to shave and dig better. Worked great, a stiff tool that reached everywhere. At the bottom there was 4" of crystallized muck. Rock like, I had to chisel it out. Also NOTE; The PO had attempted an epoxy injection repair. Let me opine this is a wasted effort. Actually I think it does more harm than good as it traps water and prevents it from draining. Opened up, the futility of the injections is exposed. It doesn't spread out and bond because the foam it wet. What you have is globs of hard epoxy in a wet sponge.

A thing that shocked me was how thin the top (upper) surfaces of the rudder were. Worn through to paper thin. Very weak. So we backed those spots and glassed them over. The front and back of the rudder were very thin also. We have ground them down, glassed and matted it all and she's better (I'm QUITE sure) than new. Great boats, but that is a design flaw. The rudder should be much stronger in my opinion.

While doing this I'm also working on the chainplate areas. As Court Crosby pointed out, the holes around the chainplates had crumbled out past the steel plates on the deck around them. Court fashioned the (Chainplate Islands). That's one way to do this. Problem is they are located in non-skid. I opted to grind the non-skid off around them in an attractive oval, and it'll be gelcoated and blend in as if it was factory. I'm really happy with this solution and the spots look great. I had very little core damage at the chainplates, maybe 4" at worst. This is starboard side I'm working on...I accessed the undersides from the standing lockers and above the pilot berth. Glass removed, core removed. Re-glassed and re-cored with solid cell, the starboard side is done and solid. (Last year I cleaned out and re-caulked the port side which no longer leaks).

So today we gelcoat the deck spots, glass the flap back on the rudder and then fill it. Note; here those pics of filling the rudder with foam show it filled with from the open starboard side. My experts said to re-glass the cut out back in place then drill holes to pour the 2 part foam through. That way, the foam is forced to expand into all tiny edges and spots. That will be tomorrow...

For any input, advice or questions feel free to contact me...Pilgrim is for sale. I have a good excuse...I own the last Hinckley Bermuda 40 owned personally (commissioned for) Henry Hinckley II. I had though Pilgrim would be my last boat...but the B40 followed me home one day....

Velera · **Joined:** 29 Dec 2006 09:38 **Posts:** 656

I performed a peel and reglassing, fairing and sealing of my T37 hull about 20 years ago. I spent $14000 and did a lot of the scut work myself. I suppose that I should tell everyone that it was a big success because it is still smooth as a baby's bottom after 20 years and a lot of miles. But, in retrospect, it was probably gross overkill reaction that could have been solved with less invasive and expensive process. Once we had the bottom peeled to a single layer of glass over the balsa core, I could see that the thousands of tiny blisters were all between the gelcoat and glass. There were a couple spots near the stern where there were voids where the glass had not been wetted out enough, but even in these, there was no true delamination. There was no place where the balsa core was wet, even though the boat had been in the water constantly for 10 years at that point (California and Mexico). My retrospective diagnosis is that the blisters were cosmetic and had something to do with the interaction of gelcoat and the substrate. Maybe the gelcoat needed to be removed (though I am not sure it could not have been dried and sealed0 but peeling the glass was not indicated. I believe all the blister problems on this boat were initiated by the PO putting a preventive "blister preventive" coating on the gelcoat when it was still wet.

I think that getting in and looking at the skeg strut and pintle was a necessary and valuable effort. I had to replace the pintle and reglass and redrill the base for the strut---I would think older boats would benefit from opening this up and seeing what is there---especially if you already have the water heater or engine out for other reasons.

I am thinking that someone must have sanded your rudder to get it that thin. I have drilled holes in mine to see if there was moisture (none found) and it had a good amount of glass on the leading and trailing edges. The bloomin thing weighs a ton and was the envy of the glass guys in the boatyard. The big barn door rudder is one of the greatest contributors to this being a great sea boat iMHO. Probably also explains why the T37 did not live up to racing expectations of Charlie Britton.

I am not trying to dissuade anyone from doing this kind of peel job, but it is definitely not for an amateur. I had the fairing done by a guy who does racing boats in San Francisco and it is exquisite but---I have done a fair amount of glass work--I would have made a mess of it. He spent nearly 100 hours with a DA grinder fairing everything--including the deep fin keel on my boat. Gruesome overhead and nasty work. If not done well you could ruin a boat with this effort IMHO. I would want to know the guy who is doing this has some experience in whole boat fairing.

I keep my boat here in Maine in a barn with a couple of Hinckley's boats. The furniture in them is definitely nicer than my Tartan, and the glasswork is massive and well done. But frankly, I would not trade my Tartan's sea keeping and responsiveness for their cachet. But that is why we have options---to each his own.

Ray
Velera
T37 #373

airedog · **Joined:** 09 Nov 2011 07:22 **Posts:** 73

It's weird because the rudder had the gelcoated top blue and white stripes in line with the hull waterline. And it was even, no ridge like it had been sanded. Sounds like it if yours was so stout. Mine is now baby. We are wrapping it with biweave. Coating it with vinylester. And Jeff my bottom guy is fantastic. I've watched him do two 37ish boats side by side...impressive. Actually, I had purchased interprotect 2000/2001 in (grey and white) and Jeff talked me out of using it. I took it back and bought the Sherwin Williams (I'll post the name later) product he recommended. Dude is impressive. I trust his judgement...anyway.

Interesting about your blisters. Sounds like mine, we'll see when he peels it how it looks and if we need to apply layers of fabric. He does a great job of shaving and fairing tho. He mixes his own special fairing compound.

My pintle looks good. I'm replacing the studs, welding them in place. But these boats at this age need to be taken apart and checked. Not a job for the faint of heart. But once done she's sound and seaworthy.

The Chainplate project has me smiling tho. Sorry I don't have before pics. Forgot...lol...but the hole around the chainplate was broken away past the plate and the core below was soft a couple inches back on each. It accessed from the lockers as I said and replaced the core and glassed it in. Then above I decided to "highlight" the area's with smooth oval gelcoat. Really coming out nice. I ground it down to shape them laid mat, resin and gelcoat. Very nice looking. Be done monday or tuesday...need a couple days break...

airedog · **Joined:** 09 Nov 2011 07:22 **Posts:** 73

here's today's work. Two layers gelcoat brushed on. This will be sanded smooth and waxed gelcoat wil be shot over top next. The other is the rudder today, the leading edge wrapped twice so far...next we cover it all...

airedog · **Joined:** 09 Nov 2011 07:22 **Posts:** 73

sorry...redundant rudder pic. I haven't down loaded it yet...

Velera · **Joined:** 29 Dec 2006 09:38 **Posts:** 656

Looks like you are doing a great job and have a good person to do the fairing. We reglassed the bottom of the boat with three layers of glass cloth in epoxy mixed with a fairing compound in the end. I forget the kind of cloth in each layer, I think we used an X cloth that had a roving layer and two layers of regular cloth.

Was your boat previously treated with an "osmosis preventative" barrier coat? I am confident that this is what started the problem with my boat. The hull was wet when applied and thousands of very tiny blisters showed up between the gelcoat and first layer of glass. Each tiny blister had a little fiber in the center which was curious--seems possible the trapped moisture reactivated the acids and caused the blisters. Kept thinking that there might be delamination below that. But there was not. You might want to replace the through hull fittings now that you are this far down. I didn't and had to go back and do it for two reasons: one had developed a pinhole leak and when you repower, most new engines specify a larger intake than the one Tartan put in.

I have previously suggested to folks in this site that putting barrier coats on wet hulls---and I have seen a lot of it done--is asking for trouble.

Ray
Velera
T 37 #373

airedog · **Joined:** 09 Nov 2011 07:22 **Posts:** 73

it had a black layer over the white. My guy here swears the white covering the glass is barrier coat...not gelcoat. Is that what you are describing?
And good advice about the through-hulls...damnit...thats boats. One project leads to five more...

And I'm flip flopping every hour about which boat to keep...

puffcard · **Posted:** 09 Sep 2013 17:54

Man I'm glad I bought a New England boat, they sit out of the water most of the year. When I bought Puff Card 19 years ago she been on the hard for 2 years. Put her in the water sailed her back to Virginia, then haul her. Sand blasted the bottom, let her sit for a couple months and lightly faired the hull. Went back with the Interlux 2000 barrier coat (grey) 7 layers and haven't had any issues...knock on wood.

I wonder if you could blasted the hull and put on a barrier coat and called it a day. If the blisters went down after being out of the water, I'm thinking the barrier coat would keep water intrusion from coming back. It would be worth a try, and a ton cheaper. If it didn't work it wouldn't be much of a lost. I do know someone who had a similar issue and it working for him so far after 5 years.

Questions:
I didn't think it was a good idea to glass the chain plates to the deck because of the flexing and movement, needs to have flexibility? Let us know how it holds up.

On the rudder job, how was the stainless steel frame inside and what was the name of the foam you used?

Velera · **Joined:** 29 Dec 2006 09:38 **Posts:** 656

Airethor wrote:

it had a black layer over the white. My guy here swears the white covering the glass is barrier coat...not gelcoat. Is that what you are describing?
And good advice about the through-hulls...damnit...thats boats. One project leads to five more...

And I'm flip flopping every hour about which boat to keep...

Yes, that would be what I am describing.

Seems likely you had the same fix I had. I wonder how many boats are being screwed up by boatyards offering preventive barrier coats.

Ray
Velera

Velera · **Joined:** 29 Dec 2006 09:38 **Posts:** 656

Also, I agree with Puffcard on the inadvisability of epoxy attachment of chainplates to the deck. There is flexing there that is important. My PO used some 5200 sealant and that caused some eggshell cracks around a couple of the stays. My thought is that epoxy probably won't stick to your chainplates that well anyway, so maybe there is no worry. Flexible sealant replaced regularly has its place on most boats.

Ray
Velera

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Pilgrim (1981 T37) projects and typical areas of concern

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