Removable inner forestay

sord · **Posted:** 05 Jan 2007 01:17

Your description gives me a somewhat better idea but I too will anxiously await the drawings but can wait until spring as I to am in a more northern latittude.

By the way we now have a name for our new boat. It will be a Canadian registered vessel called L'Attittude

Down2TheC · **Posted:** 06 Jan 2007 21:59

sord wrote:

L'Attittude

I count maybe three possible meanings there. Nice punny name.

windchime37 · **Joined:** 08 Jan 2007 14:30 **Posts:** 4

Our boat came with an inner forestay. It attaches to a chain plate below decks in the anchor locker.

sord · **Posted:** 08 Jan 2007 17:32

Could you get some photos of the chain plate from both above and below for us?

Stephen

Sam · **Joined:** 31 Oct 2006 19:43 **Posts:** 37

Dear Stephen,
I want to take a minute to post a reply because this is a topic that seems popular because the issues of dealing with a sail change can be uncomfortable to say the least. First off I have installed an inner stay on Windfall T37 #52, twice. The first time in a traditional cutter location about 25% of "J" aft of the headstay and parallel to the head stay. That is the tried and true location for such a stay. Since the "J" demension on our boats is 16', that puts the staysail tack fitting, on deck about 4-5 feet back from the stem. The mast hound fitting for that stay is about halfway between the spreaders and the mast top, so to keep the mast supported intermediate or running backstays or checkstays need to be led aft and then they will require a tensioning arraingement such as block and tackle or dedicated winches. I did all that but when I went to a sail maker to have the staysail made, he talked me out of it for a couple of reasons that I hope I can remember. First he said the sail area would be quite small an going from a roller furled 150 or 135% to the sail that would fit on the stay was not a "change of gear" or a logical step down, but more like 2 or three steps or gears. That is not what I had intended, I more envisioned sailing in a freshening breeze with the wind speed rising and I would roll up geneoa until at about 22kts, up wind, my wife would start to hold on and stop enjoying the ride, then Sam the good guy that he is, would run up forward and set up the "next gear" that would take over til about 28 kts, well the sailmaker crapped all over that plan and added. The angle of attack of such a staysail sheeted to a track that a stock T37 has available, would be over 18-20 degrees maybe even more, to sail upwind with any efficiency, a boat like ours should have effectivly, a sheeting angle of 11-14 degrees. That translates for us to a pointing angle of about 32 degrees apparent or about 45 degrees true wind in flat water. If the sheeting angle was out at 18-20 degrees, the staysail, fully sheeted in, would be luffing at about 40 degrees apparent wind and trying to sail to winward would mean a tacking angle of about 120 degrees which is very inefficient (poor vmg). Now if it is only blowing 25kts, beside the poor sheeting angle the boat will be under powered, if there are some waves, you may find the boat will not complete a tack since the jib will loose drive way before head to wind. If you get a chance to look at some of the boats that were fitted with staysails as part of the original sail plan, you will find a dedicated short track or sheet block just aft of the mast and about 2.5' outboard of the boat centerline. On a T37 that is where the handrails are located on the cabin top. Those hand rails are on about the 14 degree line, from a starting point 4 feet aft of the headstay. If you put some track there, then a small staysail could work. One other thing, our boats have forward lower shrouds, as soon as you decide to ease the staysail sheet the whole sheet and sail will be wrapped around the forward lower which isn't good, so forward you go with short sheet to lead the sail out board to the rail track which ends way aft of your lifeline gate, so by now, its night and the top of the staysail is snapping and shaking the whole rig because the sheet lead is too far aft. So you call it a day(night) and start the diesel and clean up the mess. I would say that is the short, PG rated version of what the sailmaker thought of my plan.
Not to be defeated, I moved the stay forward and higher on the mast to a location that is described as a Solent stay. As it worked out, I moved the tack to about 18" aft of the headstay and the wire is about 2' down from the top of the mast. I will finish this in another post if I see that anyone is interested.

Sam

sord · **Posted:** 31 Jan 2007 22:20

Please do continue. You (and your sail maker) have made some interesting points and I, for one, would like to hear how this ends.

Thanks

Tortuga's Lie · **Joined:** 27 Oct 2006 10:32 **Posts:** 827

SAM, With the new location of the inner stay being much higher on the mast, do you still need the running backstays, or is the mast stiff enough to withstand the bending?

Down2TheC · **Posted:** 01 Feb 2007 12:34

I'm certainly interested in hearing about your final rig and your impressions of it's performance.

I would imagine such a rig would do wonders for your sail balance. We do pretty well in the heavy air just rolling up a few feet but often to the detriment of the sail balance. Upwind tacks become more comfortable and faster but the helm is all wrong. Off the wind, things are fine. So I could see a self tacking rig for upwind work only and sticking with the furled 150 for >60 apparent. But I have zero experience with such things.

Sam · **Joined:** 31 Oct 2006 19:43 **Posts:** 37

From Sam, I just lost my typed response to the innerforestay discussion by doing something stupid with the keyboard. Maybe that should be a hint, I started out by saying there is no real right or wrong unless you need to comply with a racing rule and the boat needs to pass an inspection, like a Bermuda Race. Many boat owners will never see a need for another wire hanging off the mast, but if you foresee a time when you may want one, as it seems some of us here do, then go for it, and have fun doing it. I am going to use the post by Foxy Lady copied below as a good solid approach that can and has worked. The post very closely, almost to a "T", what I did a few years back. Sailing with this rig in sheltered waters but in wind speeds up to 35kts was very steady and under control. I recall a double reefed main and a true storm Jib with a couple of crew. We hoisted both sails on the mooring with the engine running but not in gear, and as I remember, we were moving forward on a close reach within a half a boat length after dropping the mooring pennent. We three didn't know what to expect and we would have looked stupid if we crashed into a near boat but I could feel the motion as we sat on the mooring with the sails up so when we were on a port tack I asked for the lines to be cast off and the power to maneuver in the mooring field was reasuring. We sailed into Salem Sound for about an hour and we tacked easily, the jib is small and the sheets can almost be left in place, the new leeward sheet can be made up on the winch before the old sheet is let go, the main was probably half travler down and provided enough drive to keep the tack going. The storm jib is high clewed and made for a T37 and with a foot pennant so the sheet could find a place on the inner track with the sheet led inside of the cap shrouds but outside the forward lowers the lead angle was a little wide for me so later I installed padeyes on the deck just inside the handrails and back near the aft dorade ventilators. Later that day we saild the same jib with a storm trysail, made for this boat and on a external mast track I put on the starboard side of the mast, the trysail sheets spread like a "v" and once the are sheeted in they don't need any tending, the sail just tacks back and forth. Tacking was not a sure thing with the trysail and we were in pretty flat water considering the wind, in really storm conditions, I don't think tacking would be possible. Not having the mainboom over head is a big plus to using a trysail. For winds above 35 kts, a deep double reefed or triple reefed main and a storm jib in this location seems just about right. But for reasons I mentioned in my earlier post I have changed to a removable stay much closer to the headstay. In my case about 18"-2' back from the stem. to be continued

From Foxy Lady
"Planning to install inner forestay myself. Foredeck mount will be 4' aft of stem using ABI stem fitting which has a threaded base allowing a 1/2" rod eye to screw in under the deck. It will mount fwd of V berth bulkhead, keeping out of sight. I plan to glass in a mount for a rod or stay in the anchor locker to hold the lower end. The stay itself will be 9/32 (1/4 will do) and will be attached at the mast using a T Ball for easy removal. The lower end will be a 1/2" turnbuckle ( I can make a lot of slow changes for the price of a quick release and I'm not racing). Running backs will be using T/eye toggles to 1/4" Amsteel. Series 7 Scaeffer blocks will finish out the lower end. The idea is to be able to remove the whole system completely for std daysailing but be put in place for passages. It should allow for very good balance and power for the F5 -7 winds. A smaller sail or reef in the inner sail to allow for stronger winds"

Sam · **Joined:** 31 Oct 2006 19:43 **Posts:** 37

Well how weird is this I am answering my own post. I want to try to finish up with why I went to the Solent Stay. As someone already mentioned in an earlier post, with the Solent stay attached very near the top of the mast the check stays leading aft to counter the forward pull can be eliminated. After I rigged the boat with a more traditional cutter stay as described above, the extra weight and windage and moving blocks and extra line in the cockpit needed to deal with the check stays was a pain and they always seemed to get in the way. One advantage though was that they could be used to pull the mast back while connecting the real backstay during spring commisioning. A second reason for the Solent stay is that a larger sail can fit in the triangle created so the usefull wind range using the stay drops to about 16 kts apparant, with a high clew working jib of about 245 sq feet, I feel adequet power from 15 to 25 kts, and a very easy sail to tack. As I recall, the sail come around without hesitation and I can get it trimmed up after a tack with 2-3 turns of the winch. Jibing in heavy air is easier too, I think you could tension both sheets slightly then as the stern come through the wind,ease the weather sheet. No chance for the sail to fly out ahead of the boat and wrap. With wind speeds above 25 kts, then a storm jib could be used. The sailmaker I spoke with did not endorse reefing points built into these hanked on jibs. The third reason I changed to a Solent stay is, that the sheeting angle from the forward position of the stay to the deck gear made to accept sheets on a T37, is acceptable so the sail track and winches already installed can be used. I think the trick for the sailmaker is to cut the sail so that it can be led outside the forward lower shroud and inside the cap shroud. With a high clew, the sheet will find a place on the factory installed geneoa track.

Tartan37.com

Removable inner forestay

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