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 Post subject: Yikes! Rudder out of water another 3 or 4 inches
PostPosted: 20 Dec 2021 21:51 
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Rail Meat

Joined: 17 Oct 2021 23:04
Posts: 16
Just installed a Lewmar H2 windlass and a Rocna 20kg anchor on Kingston roller and my rudder has lifted above the water by another 4 inches...and I haven't even got the chain on board yet. I mounted the anchor/ roller a bit forward but I wouldn't expect half a foot to make that kind of difference, especially after viewing some T37 installations on this forum and elsewhere. I realize these boats are known to be sensitive to added weight on the bow but geesh. For any members kind enough to respond, how much rudder would one expect above the water when all is said and done, windlass, roller, anchor etc. I realize it depends on type, models etc. but ballpark?


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 Post subject: Re: Yikes! Rudder out of water another 3 or 4 inches
PostPosted: 21 Dec 2021 06:22 
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Tactictian

Joined: 06 Aug 2020 09:02
Posts: 142
Do you have any fuel? That would trim the boat down by the stern significantly. A full fuel tank is about 400 lbs. 90 gal water is another 700+ pounds with LCG aft of the LCB which would both sink the boat and trim aft slightly. There's nothing to be concerned about here.


 
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 Post subject: Re: Yikes! Rudder out of water another 3 or 4 inches
PostPosted: 21 Dec 2021 08:24 
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Skipper

Joined: 09 Aug 2017 15:35
Posts: 725
Location: Maine/USVI
I have the same setup, but returned the 44# Rocna anchor in lieu of the Rocna 15 with a new Muir 1250 windlass. My roller is a Kingston and sticks out like that as well. I'll go with 130' of 5/16" chain or so, and a couple hundred of rode. I also have an FX 37 Fortress, a danforth, a lunch hook and a plow. I figure I can lug additional hooks, chain and rode forward if ever needed, and I left the hawse pipe in the deck in case I need it. What's that furler?


 
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 Post subject: Re: Yikes! Rudder out of water another 3 or 4 inches
PostPosted: 21 Dec 2021 09:28 
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Rail Meat

Joined: 17 Oct 2021 23:04
Posts: 16
Yes, the fuel tank is quite low and am not currently using port side water tank (leakage issue); so, granted, it should make some difference. But, the fact that I have yet to add any chain does still concern me. The pics were taken late evening so I'm posting a couple from today with better lighting. Thanks much.


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 Post subject: Re: Yikes! Rudder out of water another 3 or 4 inches
PostPosted: 21 Dec 2021 09:39 
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Rail Meat

Joined: 17 Oct 2021 23:04
Posts: 16
Thanks for the response Mainiac. Did you change to the Rocna 15 and 130' of chain because of how the arse end sat up? The furler is a Harken IV #2. It's really low to the bow stem and caused issues with mounting the roller. Had to get a notch cut out of the roller side rail but didn't get enough taken out or I could have mounted the roller back some more. The windlass was a real pain because of the center staysail track (she was all set up for racing) and the stay in the anchor locker from the hull tab to the under side of the track. I was trying to keep everything intact but had to end up removing a chunk of the forward end of the track. It was still a pretty tight fit underneath.


 
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 Post subject: Re: Yikes! Rudder out of water another 3 or 4 inches
PostPosted: 21 Dec 2021 11:14 
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Tactictian

Joined: 06 Aug 2020 09:02
Posts: 142
I really don't see a problem here. For reference, even with full fuel and water my boat floats with the top of the rudder out of the water. I have a 45 lb Mantis on a roller and 50 ft of 5/16 chain in the locker. I also have an inflatable on the foredeck and a heavy custom mattress in the V berth. You could also have a low waterline / bootstripe at the bow throwing off your perspective. If you look at the sections in the bow you will see a great deal of volume plus some flare to the topsides. That makes the floatation waterline and trim less susceptible to changes in added weight and weight distribution. You should be more concerned with pitch moment with additional weight at the bow. That is where these boat suffer because they are generally heavy in cruising mode and we have a tree trunk of a mast section. For any ocean passage I would consider moving all moveable heavy objects off the bow and located more centerline and as low as possible. This would definitely help performance in waves. That's my nav arch spiel.


 
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 Post subject: Re: Yikes! Rudder out of water another 3 or 4 inches
PostPosted: 21 Dec 2021 11:34 
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Navigator

Joined: 06 Sep 2020 10:08
Posts: 99
We have a Rocna 44 on a huge (extends the bow 4', welded 2" diameter stainless) anchoring platform with 200' of chain. When we bought the boat it also had a 30 lb Delta on the second roller (that anchor is currently in our backyard in need of a new rode). At the dock our rudder has about 2" out of the water. The boot stripe matches how she floats.

The question I've been wondering about is the waterline when we're under power. When motoring at 2500 rpm the transom is under water up to the exhaust pipe. Sometimes in a wave the exhaust gets submerged. Is this a normal condition for T37's? Boat speed is anywhere from 5-7 knots, depending on the wind and waves, which seems fine.

No problem when we're sailing, which makes some sense since the propeller is below the boat's CG and the sails are above it, so the pitching moment is reversed.


 
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 Post subject: Re: Yikes! Rudder out of water another 3 or 4 inches
PostPosted: 21 Dec 2021 12:53 
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Rail Meat

Joined: 17 Oct 2021 23:04
Posts: 16
madmike wrote:
We have a Rocna 44 on a huge (extends the bow 4', welded 2" diameter stainless) anchoring platform with 200' of chain. When we bought the boat it also had a 30 lb Delta on the second roller (that anchor is currently in our backyard in need of a new rode). At the dock our rudder has about 2" out of the water. The boot stripe matches how she floats.

The question I've been wondering about is the waterline when we're under power. When motoring at 2500 rpm the transom is under water up to the exhaust pipe. Sometimes in a wave the exhaust gets submerged. Is this a normal condition for T37's? Boat speed is anywhere from 5-7 knots, depending on the wind and waves, which seems fine.

No problem when we're sailing, which makes some sense since the propeller is below the boat's CG and the sails are above it, so the pitching moment is reversed.


Thanks Madmike. You say that even with all that weight forward your rudder sits about 2" above the water and that's what concerns me about mine. It's already about 5" with no chain and granted, as jfalsone points out, with fuel and water tanks full it would be less but I can't see it getting it near 2".


 
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 Post subject: Re: Yikes! Rudder out of water another 3 or 4 inches
PostPosted: 21 Dec 2021 12:57 
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Rail Meat

Joined: 17 Oct 2021 23:04
Posts: 16
jfalsone wrote:
I really don't see a problem here. For reference, even with full fuel and water my boat floats with the top of the rudder out of the water. I have a 45 lb Mantis on a roller and 50 ft of 5/16 chain in the locker. I also have an inflatable on the foredeck and a heavy custom mattress in the V berth. You could also have a low waterline / bootstripe at the bow throwing off your perspective. If you look at the sections in the bow you will see a great deal of volume plus some flare to the topsides. That makes the floatation waterline and trim less susceptible to changes in added weight and weight distribution. You should be more concerned with pitch moment with additional weight at the bow. That is where these boat suffer because they are generally heavy in cruising mode and we have a tree trunk of a mast section. For any ocean passage I would consider moving all moveable heavy objects off the bow and located more centerline and as low as possible. This would definitely help performance in waves. That's my nav arch spiel.


Much appreciate the knowledge jfalsone. As Madmike points out though, with all the weight he's got forward his rudder sits 2" above the water. That I would find reasonable. But, I'm already about 5". Maybe I'm just being a bit obtuse. It kind of makes it hard to decide on length of G4 chain.


 
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 Post subject: Re: Yikes! Rudder out of water another 3 or 4 inches
PostPosted: 21 Dec 2021 17:13 
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Skipper

Joined: 09 Aug 2017 15:35
Posts: 725
Location: Maine/USVI
Yeah, something's off there. The Rudderpost area looks reasonable enough. There should be a delrin bushing around the rudderpost above the rudder. Helps it keep from "klunking" and wearing where the surfaces meet. But something looks off with the rest of it.

I went with the lighter anchor knowing these boats sit a little bow down and, frankly, after I carried the 44# Rocna up the ladder on the hard. I don't intend to get caught in a blow, but if it happens I got tons of backup anchors, chain and rode that I'll stow in places that will help balance the boat.


 
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