Keel crack at keel/hull joint on full keel Tartans

Desert Pirate · **Joined:** 15 Mar 2011 15:46 **Posts:** 9

Hello, I made an offer on a T38 and on the haul out a crack was found all around the front of the keel at the keel/hull joint. An interesting aspect is that there are about 16 keel bolts in the bilge! One post on this site has a picture of the keel completely off the boat and there are 9 keel bolts. So I'm thinking 7 or so more keel bolts were added. Does this sound to anyone like the response to some serious keel damage? I might also add that there are four bilge pumps on the boat! Here's a picture of the port side crack:

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conch · **Joined:** 21 Jan 2010 12:57 **Posts:** 168

I don't believe that the "crack" is evidence of anything other than the fact that lead and fiberglass expand and contract at different rates. That being said, if you can't obtain a reliable history of keel repairs from previous owner(s), I think that removal of the keel, addition of some new bolts and rebedding would be indicated on a 30 year old (salt water?) boat.

Velera · **Joined:** 29 Dec 2006 09:38 **Posts:** 656

I have owned a "T 38" deep keeled version for 20 years and have battled that same crack for most of that time. I fully agree with Conch that the crack is most likely esthetic and probably means nothing. Hull to keel joints flex and cracks generally do not indicate leaks or problems. I have tightened the keel bolts a couple times, once after five months in the yard (there is a bolt under the mast step that is nearly impossible to get at and probably is the source of the leak if you have one) and, at more that one point completely stripped the hull to deck joint all the way around down to bare metal and taped the joint with carbon fiber tape---that did help, but there is still a faint leak each season when I put it up for the winter. I cannot explain the extra keel bolts you describe. I think mine has 9 if I recall correctly (the 9th is under the mast step). If you posted a picture I could probably tell you which ones are extras. Cannot explain the bilge pumps either---I am sure mine came from the factory with 2 pumps. Although leaks from anywhere end up in the bilge, I have never had a leak from the keel bolts and my boat has a lot of hard offshore miles on it.

I did have an internal leak which at first I attributed to the keel bolt under the mast step. My logic is that this is a very highly stressed area when the boat is beating to weather and it would put a lot of pressure on the forward end of the keel (how much halyard tension did the PO use? do you have a backstay tensioner? did he race? This might explain the crack and maybe possibly a leak potential. What I eventually discovered was that my leak was not coming from the keel bolts at all or from the crack, but was a pinhole in the sink through hull. The PO could have been adding bolts to chase a leak from any of the other places in the boat.

What would concern me about this boat is the quality of the installation of the additional bolts if someone added some (how they would get more in there, is a question--it is tight in my bilge with the standard set). Tartans are well built boats and I have much more faith in the Tartan folks' work than most boatyard folks and owner/boatworkers. I would be concerned about the real skill to fit more bolts securely into the keel and through the bilge of my boat without weakening the whole system. I would want to have an explanation from the PO about what was done by whom and maybe get some pictures of the work if they exist.

If you can resolve this, I think the deep keeled Tartan is the sweetest sailing boat I have sailed (I was a delivery skipper at one time) and a witch to weather. Let us know what you decide.

Ray

Desert Pirate · **Joined:** 15 Mar 2011 15:46 **Posts:** 9

Thanks to Conch and Valera (Ray) for your replies. Ray, does your boat have a two, or three bladed prop. the one I looked at has a three bladed prop and its prop walk to port is, to say the least, very pronounced. FYI, when the crane lifted the T38 out of the water it registered at 19,400 lbs. We did 5.25 kts to weather in 8.5 kts of breeze, but could only manage a little over 4 sailing on a reach. This surprised me.

Ardea · **Joined:** 19 Mar 2007 16:40 **Posts:** 195

That's about what our boat weighs. I think the design weight is a pretty good educated guessby the designer but the builder has variations in the lay up schedule whether intensional or due to variations by the workers (how much resins, etc.). This is not uncommon. Also the boat has more equipment on it probably, liquid in the tanks, maybe extra sails and so forth.

Speed of the boat in any given condition depends on a number of variable. The condition of the sails, how clean the hull is, sea state, sail trim, sail size, sail cut, sail fabric weight, rig tune, point of sail, operator skill. Is that 8.5 knots true? If so your apperent wind was more like 13 kts until you fell off then it was probably closer to the true wind speed. Lots of variables to consider.

Check to see if your keel bolts are tight. Pretty common for T-30s to develope a "smile" at the forward end of the keel to hull joint due in part to loose keel bolts. In most cases tightening them improves the problem. Could be the same thing with the T-37.

Velera · **Joined:** 29 Dec 2006 09:38 **Posts:** 656

Desert Pirate wrote:

Thanks to Conch and Valera (Ray) for your replies. Ray, does your boat have a two, or three bladed prop. the one I looked at has a three bladed prop and its prop walk to port is, to say the least, very pronounced. FYI, when the crane lifted the T38 out of the water it registered at 19,400 lbs. We did 5.25 kts to weather in 8.5 kts of breeze, but could only manage a little over 4 sailing on a reach. This surprised me.

My boat has a 3 bladed feathering prop that is fully adjustable in forward and reverse (Autostream sold by Martec). As I recall this increased my sailing speed by .6kt over the two bladed overpitched Michigan prop that came with the boat It can be set to back straight astern when the reverse pitch is set low, but I like a bit of walk a bit to sidle up to the dock and the faster stop afforded by overpitching it in in reverse--pitch forward is set to give me 6.4 kt of speed at 80% RPM. I don't know too many folks that have a fixed three blade and would not recommend it but your speeds sound incredibly low even with that drag--sure the speedometer is right? GPS?. I have sailed 7 knots in a 7 knot beam reach in flat water with a 135% and have video to prove it. My boat is a deep keel but has a standard mast. I would not be suprised if the boat weighs more than the listed amount--most production boats do. But consider that they are weighed dry at half load of fuel and water and probably some fudging on that number by Tartan as by most manufacturers. Also, I would not bet my life on the scales on a travelift or crane--I think most of these are questionable as well. I think my boat was weighed once at about 17200 with more fuel and most of my cruising junk on board (I have almost 500 lbs of anchoring gear and probably had full fuel at the time which would do that) and I might think that was close to being accurate.

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Keel crack at keel/hull joint on full keel Tartans

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