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 Post subject: Repower estimates and is Beta Reaaly Better??
PostPosted: 22 Aug 2013 19:30 
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Tactictian

Joined: 16 Mar 2007 16:10
Posts: 143
Looking at an older (79) well kept T37. Unfortunately don't know how many hours are on the engine. Survey said meter inoperable, owner says over 3,000 hours.
The thought of having engine problems on Lake Superior haunts me.
Trying to get an idea how much to budget for a new engine and tranny. Any ideas??

Also, I have have been reading a lot of postive posts about Beta Marine engines. Is Beta better??
All comments will be greatly appreacited.
Regards,
Nick.


 
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 Post subject: Don't know about Beta.
PostPosted: 22 Aug 2013 20:03 
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Skipper

Joined: 13 Feb 2011 21:19
Posts: 349
Location: Canyon Lake, TX
But yeah, my hour meter is busted, too. So I built a spreadsheet with dates, start times and stop times. It tells me how many hours *I* have run the engine plus how many hours on the oil and fuel filters, the zincs and lastly calculates approximate fuel usage since last fill up. That last part is a little off yet. Last time we got diesel, the spreadsheet said 27.2 gallons but the tank was full at 26.7 gallons. Cheers

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Wayne
Master and Commander of the Sailing Vessel Impetuous
I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing.
Subservient to no man except SWMBO
Any day without dock lines is a GOOD day!


 
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 Post subject: Re: Repower estimates and is Beta Reaaly Better??
PostPosted: 22 Aug 2013 23:06 
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Skipper

Joined: 05 Nov 2006 11:10
Posts: 321
Location: Chesapeake Bay
My Beta was about $11,000 plus about another $4 for additional parts and labor. I did all the removal of the old and all the prep for the new, labor by a professional mechanic was about 30 hours but in actual time he probably put in more like 40 so you could say I got a deal.

I am very pleased with the beta and its pretty much a drop in replacement, just be sure the measuring is done correctly...no bed modifications required unlike a yanmar or westerbeast.

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Hull #358 "Windgeist"
Chesapeake Bay


 
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 Post subject: Re: Repower estimates and is Beta Reaaly Better??
PostPosted: 23 Aug 2013 07:59 
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Skipper

Joined: 29 Dec 2006 09:38
Posts: 656
I did a Yanmar replacement myself. I bought the engine with upgraded panel and an 80 amp alternator for $9500 in 2007 delivered. I spent another $800 or so on getting some machining done to fit it in (shaft facing, metal shims, new through hulls, new sound proofing, hoses) And I replaced the water heater, the exhaust hose (you will likely need to do this with whatever you repower it with), the shaft (I would recommend this) and the stuffing box (this is your big chance to redo all this stuff while you have the engine out). I think I spent, all told, $15K for engine, shaft, water heater, hoses, over $100 in hose clamps alone, materials to rebed, and generally redoing all the things back there. When I shopped actual prices in 2007, the cost of a Yanmar vs. the Beta was about the same. You want to get a quote from the local Yanmar dealer who has the highest volume in your area, as Yanmar lowers the wholesale price to high volume folks and mine passed this along to me. Westerbeke was a bit more and I had had enough of their part prices and they are tractor engines as well.

I went with Yanmar because its marinization is engineered into the design of the engine, not cobbled together out of repurposed tractor engine. Things like heat exchangers (which were a problem to maintain with the Westerbeke) are integral and made from metals that can stand up to salt without a lot of zincs to stave off the corrosion issues that plague engine systems not designed for this. Parts are available here and internationally (I spent a couple years cruising in Central America and you can get parts for Yanmars just about anywhere and mechanics know them because they are standard in yachts) and, at least from my local dealer, buying routine filters (eg. oil filters about $7), impellers and fan belts, is less expensive than buying at the auto parts store. I had great support from my local dealer during my installation, but that may vary by your location. I have about 500 hours on my engine and could not be happier with it. There is a log of my replacement in the technical section of the T37 website. Yanmar has an engine installation book that would be good for any self installer to use and I recommend it. Actually, it would be good for some of the yards to read it. The district rep for Yanmar said that the DIY installations were generally better than many of the yard jobs because yard guys do it the way they learned it years ago, and do not read the current literature.

Having said that, you will see that a lot of folks like Beta and I am all for competition. With diligent maintenance of the external systems of heat exchangers and marinized exhausts (new engines generally recommend larger exhaust hoses because of research on the effects of back pressure) One of the challenges is that the old Westerbeke 50 had a crankshaft exit that was 1.5X" below the level of the engine mounts---a very odd configuration, since most exit at the level of the engine mounts. It means that you must either modify the engine bed (cut it down a couple inches), or get some very fancy engine mounts. I understand that Beta says they will manufacture these for you. I am not sure how they do that, as the bed is very narrow and it would be tricky, but some have apparently done it successfully. I cut my bed down and it really was not that big a deal if you have some idea of working with fiberglass. You probably want to get in there and paint and fix everything anyway while the engine is out, and cutting down the bed means the next guy won't have issues. I think cutting the bed down took a few extra hours of my time and I am glad I didi it. I dropped the bed about 2.5" and made some metal shims to get the positioning perfect.

OK. Having said that---I think a lot of yacht repowering is done unnecessarily. Diesels last a long time and folks get impatient with them. I had broken a ring on my engine which had 4500 hours on it. This came after I left it for a couple rainy seasons in the tropical jungles of Panama. It was running fine up til then. Although Westerbeke parts are breathtakingly expensive and some of the the W50 parts are getting hard to find, I think a lot of people rush into replacement. I probably could have replaced the rings and gotten more out of it. I met a lot of full time cruisers with 6 to 10 K hours on their engines, but these were run hard and long and maintained better than a lot of our marina queens. But if yours starts after a couple revolutions and is not burning enormous quantities of oil, you might consider coaxing it along. Well maintained diesels with clean fuel and maintained cooling systems do not often suddenly fail. Mine ran for 500 hours after it broke a ring.

BTW--read and observe the break in procedures. They probably are not what you think. Also you might consider a new prop as the prop pitch should be matched to the torque of your engine. You can solve this by getting a feathering, externally adjustable prop and get it all perfect. A poorly matched prop will drastically shorten the life of your new engine. Yanmar will not warrant an engine with poorly matched prop--and I would not either. IMHO, many of the production boats have horribly overpitched propellers. While this may make you think your engine is very quiet, lugging a diesel is an express ticket to your next replacement or overhaul.

I would say I spent a bit more than 100 hours on replacing everything. Quite a bit of off line thinking and getting stuff together. But it is very satisfying and informative to do all the work yourself. You can take the time to do things right.


Ray
Velera


 
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 Post subject: Re: Repower estimates and is Beta Reaaly Better??
PostPosted: 23 Aug 2013 12:32 
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Tactictian

Joined: 16 Mar 2007 16:10
Posts: 143
Thanks for the feedback.

Not sure if it's best to pass on this one and look for a T37 that already has been repowered or bit the bullet and drop $ 17k-20k for a new engine?

Any comments??


 
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 Post subject: Re: Repower estimates and is Beta Reaaly Better??
PostPosted: 23 Aug 2013 12:47 
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Skipper

Joined: 09 Jul 2008 12:51
Posts: 251
I was certainly ready to re-power a month ago, even got an estimate for a new Beta 38, but the clouds parted and it's been sunny ever since.

Here's the work I've done on the engine just this year:

1. installed a rebuilt fuel injection pump (old one was leaking pretty bad)
2. replaced the oil cooler (old one was spewing oil)
3. replaced the heat exchanger (old was was leaking inside, fresh water and sea water mixing...loosing coolant)
4. replaced thermostat and temp sensor (probably not necessary)
5. replaced most of my hoses
6. replaced my alternator (old one died)
7. replaced the sea water pump last year

But despite all of this, the engine compression is good. That's why I am keeping the old girl.

She does leak a little oil, either the rear oil seal or around the oil pressure sensor, but I won't hold that against her. All of us old folks leak a little. My thoughts are, unless the compression goes, keep the engine because all of the replacement parts can be found and if done by yourself, it can be done economically.

If you're really worried about the engine I would suggest a few tests like scheduling a few trips(3) back to back (at least 8 hours in length) to shake the engine out. Running the engine at or longer periods like this will really let you know if you may potentially have a problem. After running it for 24 hours with no REAL problems, then keep the engine maintained with regular servicing and keep a log of that service. Keep a happy engine.

Then go have a cold one and think about what you can buy with the money you saved by not re-powering !!!


 
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 Post subject: Re: Repower estimates and is Beta Reaaly Better??
PostPosted: 23 Aug 2013 12:51 
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Skipper

Joined: 21 Jan 2010 12:57
Posts: 168
I bought #253 in late 2011 from up on the Great Lakes with a 4 cylinder Yanmar with 17 hours on it. I shudder to think what the previous owner spent on installation. It is a GREAT engine, albeit probably one cylinder too large. I reach hull speed at under 2000 RPM. The three cylinder would also fit better. The fuel usage is so miserly that I still can hardly believe it. I know nothing of the Beta, but the Yanmar, IMHO, is a fine piece of gear. And yes, you'll most assuredly be better off financially buying a boat (or an airplane) with a new engine (and tanks, and sails, and cushions blah, blah). The previous post is right on: if the original engine has good compression, it's likely to last a long time. I'd love to communicate with you about Lake Superior issues if you've a mind to: my E-mail is douglong169@gmail.com. Regards


 
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 Post subject: Re: Repower estimates and is Beta Reaaly Better??
PostPosted: 24 Aug 2013 20:38 
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Skipper

Joined: 05 Nov 2006 11:10
Posts: 321
Location: Chesapeake Bay
BETA engineers the engine bed using a measurement template. Its an additional cost of about $500 but the after engine bolts holes were almost exact, only had to drill new holes for the front mounts. Yanmar, Westerbeke and several others were not able or willing to do this.

I don't know how much weight I would put into the fact that Yanmar is purpose built. They are fine engines and pretty much the same cost as any other. Also, the beta 38 is a four cylinder, the Yanmar is a three. Your Westerbeke is a marinized tractor engine and they're going on 30 years or more and most are probably running the original exhaust manifolds, exchnagers, pumps, etc.

Not mentioned previously, but I replaced many other things not inlcuded in the pricing I mentioned before.

New:
Water heater
Complete engine sound and heat barrier
Painted the entire engine room and bilge area aft
New L16 Trojans, cables, ACR, and switch
Muffler
Added a new fuel polishing unit from Favor
And several other odds and ends like having the fuel tank polished and old fuel removed

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Hull #358 "Windgeist"
Chesapeake Bay


 
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 Post subject: Re: Repower estimates and is Beta Reaaly Better??
PostPosted: 22 Dec 2013 18:13 
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Rail Meat

Joined: 21 Oct 2008 18:33
Posts: 22
Just replaced the Westerbeke 50 on Dragonfly with a Beta 38. $25,000 but included a fuel tank, engine compartment hatch, engine compartment insulation, start battery, raw water thru hull, raw water strainer, new Racor fuel filter, 2.5" exhaust and a failed attempt to reuse my old (dead) Balmer alternator regulator. I just have 4 hours on it now, but WOW is it quiet. I was told I needed to replace my 16X12 prop with a 17X12, I elected to not do that because it would require cutting into the hull and can be done later if it is really needed.

I replaced the Westerbeke because I have spent more money on new raw water pumps than fuel since I have owned it. And, it leaks oil, and is a fuel hog, and is noisy, and the v belt isn't really heavy enough for my big Balmer alternator. But it had good compression and always started right away until the starter died and then, though it would eventually start, the fuel shut off cable corroded and pushed/pulled through the fiberglass panel when trying to stop the engine.

I debated installing the Beta 30, it is 75 pounds lighter. But when aground I use full power to get off. Going to and in the Bahamas we were aground enough that I decided the extra weight was worthwhile. Regardless, the stern is now a full 4" higher in the water than it was with the Westerbeke but all of my gear is not yet back on board and there is only 15 gallons in the fuel tank.

Haven't had a calm day to test it yet, but on the way back to my marina I got 7.5 kt at WOT 3600 RPM, 5 kt at 1800 RPM, 6 kt at 2200 RPM. But, that was in 2' waves and a good cross wind, I'd have rather been sailing - except I had to try out my new engine.

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Court
S/V Dragonfly, T37 #249


 
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 Post subject: Re: Repower estimates and is Beta Reaaly Better??
PostPosted: 23 Dec 2013 08:29 
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Skipper

Joined: 27 Oct 2006 10:32
Posts: 827
Nice Christmas present Cheers


 
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