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 Post subject: Fixed:... W50 not starting.
PostPosted: 27 May 2012 12:52 
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Skipper

Joined: 20 Oct 2006 16:10
Posts: 687
Location: Out of Waukegan, IL
Calling all Diesel guru's.

We just had the injection pump and injectors rebuilt and everything went back together without major incident. We're trying to get her running in the cradle but no joy as of yet.

Things we know:
1. Bleeding process went as indicated. We have fuel at the injectors. We went through the process several times for lack of other activities.
2. Oil is new and looking fine
3. The old "WD40 in the intake" routine got her to rumble a couple times but today yields nothing.
4. Exhaust is pushing the water out normally during cranking.

Here are the suspects in my mind:
1. I know of no way to independently verify that the injectors are firing. But the WD40 should turn the engine regardless of their operation.
2. Excessive blow-by. The WD40 should have the cylinder walls well lubricated and I find it hard to believe that after 32 years, the compression fails the same year I rebuild the injection pump. She was running fine last season. Just had the leak from the injection pump and the white smoke.
3. Crank speed. Seemed low initially but once she lubricated it now seems nominal to me. Starter batt was freshly charged each day and I have a pretty good ear for this engine after 30 years. I don't think it's too slow. We've had WD40 kick her over with a slower crank.

So any suggestions are welcome. If anyone has troubleshooting tests or things to check on, let me know. I'd be very interested in ways to test compression or injector firing.

Thanks, MJC
*Note: We used the Skipper's WD40 bleed method a couple times in a pinch but have suspended it's use for the past couple years after getting opinions from diesel pros.

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 Post subject: Re: Mayday... W50 not starting.
PostPosted: 27 May 2012 16:18 
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Skipper

Joined: 29 Dec 2010 10:24
Posts: 191
No great ideas except don't keep the water supply on as if it doesn't start it will fill the exhaust and back into engine. Good luck, Bruce.

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 Post subject: Re: Mayday... W50 not starting.
PostPosted: 27 May 2012 18:16 
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Skipper

Joined: 05 Nov 2006 11:10
Posts: 321
Location: Chesapeake Bay
Check the timing of the injector pump? Must not be getting fuel. This might be a silly or obvious thing, but I am guessing you shut the fuel valve off when you removed everything, did you turn it back on? Frustrating I did that on my motorcycle once! lol

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 Post subject: Re: Mayday... W50 not starting.
PostPosted: 27 May 2012 20:00 
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Skipper

Joined: 20 Oct 2006 16:10
Posts: 687
Location: Out of Waukegan, IL
Couldn't do the bleed process without the fuel on. (plus I learned from other posters on the other thread to remember to turn that on!)

Anyway, new theory. We have fuel to the injectors. If it ran on WD40 but not without it, I might think injectors or timing. But it doesn't run on anything. So that points to loss of compression.

Not likely that my rings went south the same time that I rebuild the injectors... so perhaps the injectors aren't holding the compression. What if the shop gave me the wrong setup for mounting those injectors. Frankly, it was done as an after thought and didn't seem too complicated so they are the only things I didn't take pictures of before going to the shop. When they returned I thought the big copper washers around the nozzle nut seemed new. Wasn't sure if it was because everything was clean. Maybe they're too thick or too thin, or wrong material.

So does anyone know what our injectors have as far as keeping the seal on the cylinder? I had them match the heat shields in my presence so I know those are the same, but the level that seats on the head came back with pretty think copper washers. Maybe 1/8" thick.

I think in the morning, I'll go spray some soap around the base of them and see if anything bubbles.

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1981 - Full Keel - Furling Main (A boat for the lazy crew...)


 
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 Post subject: Re: Mayday... W50 not starting.
PostPosted: 27 May 2012 21:17 
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Skipper

Joined: 05 Nov 2006 11:10
Posts: 321
Location: Chesapeake Bay
LOL...good point PC hates me

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 Post subject: Re: Mayday... W50 not starting.
PostPosted: 28 May 2012 01:06 
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Skipper

Joined: 20 Oct 2006 16:10
Posts: 687
Location: Out of Waukegan, IL
Just found in the overhaul part of the manual that it states clearly to put heat shields with the hump up. My shop told me hump down. Wonder if that could possibly make a difference.

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1981 - Full Keel - Furling Main (A boat for the lazy crew...)


 
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 Post subject: Re: Mayday... W50 not starting.
PostPosted: 28 May 2012 06:35 
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Skipper

Joined: 29 Dec 2006 09:38
Posts: 656
Just checking....you shut off the water intake like T37Chef suggested, right? My neighbor destroyed his nearly new engine by cranking water into it with prolonged cranking with the water on. Will not hurt to start the engine with the water off, but you can bend a rod in it if you fill it with water as my neighbor did.

If you have fuel leaking from the injectors when you loosen the nut on the top of each of them--no bubbles--you have fuel getting to them. I do not trust the other methods of determining fuel flow on the pump itself. Then it becomes an issue of whether it is getting there at the right time under adequate pressure. Assume that since the pump is overhauled the pressure is OK (fittings leaking?) then--as others suggest--look at timing mark. You can remove an injector and watch the spray pattern while someone cranks it. It is possible someone screwed up the overhaul--it has happened.


 
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 Post subject: Re: Mayday... W50 not starting.
PostPosted: 28 May 2012 13:21 
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Skipper

Joined: 20 Oct 2006 16:10
Posts: 687
Location: Out of Waukegan, IL
Well we did some cranking with water provided. But as long as it's kicking water out the tailpipe, then we're good, right? Can't very well have exhaust pushing water out if the water is backflowing to the exhaust. And it was shooting/pulsing out indicating that the muffler is being filled with air from the exhaust as designed. But I heeded warnings of you guys and the manual and ceased feeding her water until she runs. I might give her a little bit after a prolonged sit, just to lubricate things.

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1981 - Full Keel - Furling Main (A boat for the lazy crew...)


 
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 Post subject: Re: Mayday... W50 not starting.
PostPosted: 28 May 2012 15:25 
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Skipper

Joined: 21 Oct 2006 15:36
Posts: 268
The copper washers provided are what makes the injectors seal in the head. They are relatively thick. Not sure they are 1/8" but they near that thickness. I don't recall exactly what happened when I reinstalled my first injector, but it didn't seem to seat into the head far enough. I removed the injector, put some grease on the washer to hold it properly in place, and after doing that it inserted properly. The washer may have been cocked slightly. I would think, however, that if they weren't seated correctly you would be able to hear high pressure air leakage, but maybe not.

I can't comment on the heat shields. I took my injectors out, with the heat shields in place, I guess. I sent the to be rebuilt. They came back as a single unit with the final washer. I just had to drop them in, tighten the 2 nuts that pressed them into the head, connected the fuel lines and the engine fired right off. I did look at the service manual like you and the lip on the heat shield goes up, according to that drawing.

Sorry, I couldn't be more helpful.

Jim

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 Post subject: Re: Mayday... W50 not starting.
PostPosted: 29 May 2012 06:10 
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Skipper

Joined: 27 Oct 2006 10:32
Posts: 827
My copper washers are not that thick, maybe 1/16" but definitely not the 1/8". I don't know if the extra height would affect the positioning of the injectors or not. I does sound to me that you're not holding fuel compression, air is getting in somewhere. Timing could be an issue as well....
When starting the engine on the hard, I always suck water from a bucket with a hose adding more to the bucket when needed, this way, you are not forcing water into the engine block but allowing to operate as normal.


 
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